Educating the World About Dyslexia ft. YouTuber and Coach Arije-Aike de Haas

But it's okay if you use accommodations and you're not cheating if you take some more time.

Hey everyone, we are Sonja and Nick and this is Dyslexia Journey. And today, we are excited to have part two of our interview with Aryeh de Haas. Aryeh is an education scientist specializing in dyslexia and related topics. As a dyslexic himself, he truly understands and feels for those struggling with dyslexia. His highly successful YouTube channel about dyslexia has almost 34,000 subscribers and some of his videos have over 1 million views. He also offers one-on-one coaching.

Aryeh, welcome to part two of our interviews. Thank you so much. I'm happy to get into it. Yeah. And in our last one, we were doing it more from the dyslexic voices perspective. So hearing about your journey, you know, from childhood to adulthood, being identified, all of that. So you guys can watch that. We'll link that as well. But today, we're going to talk more about kind of your current advice and tips and strategies and all of it.

Because you are a coach and, you know, you are an education specialist. Plus, you have your own perspective as a dyslexic person. And one piece I wanted to pull in that's pretty specific, actually, from last time. Because we don't always get the opportunity to talk about different languages with people. And you are the perfect person to talk to since you speak four languages, right? English, Hebrew, Dutch, and German. And you did mention, you know, that you grew up bilingual with the Dutch and German.

But so that obviously is an advantage for those two. But, you know, often, at least in the U.S. And, of course, we aren't as strong in languages in the U.S. anyway. But there's a lot of talking, you know, talk that, like, just have dyslexic kids skip the foreign languages. And, you know, that's the hardest thing for kids and things like that. And, you know, we tend to kind of try to say, well, I mean, really, it's still more about the accommodations and they're speaking.

And, you know, that we don't necessarily think that it should be thrown out like that. But I'd be curious to hear your perspective on dyslexia and language learning, you know, partly from your own perspective and how that worked for you. You know, was it more oral? Like, how did the written part come in? And made perhaps with tips that you just know from your education background. Yeah, so when it comes to language learning, you know, from childhood, I remember where I had my notebook and I wrote down all the words and I just had, like, this word that I need to learn.

And I just copied it, copied it, copied it, copied it. And that's what they told me to do, right? And I thought that's how it works. And I got a terribly bad exam results. And I was, like, really upset and went with those results to my teacher. And it was like, and my notes of all the words that I copied is, like, I copied it so many times that what you told me to do and I still have a bad grade.

You know, so I really, at that point, I really didn't understand how learning actually works and how to do it. And what I should have done is rely more on active recall. So really close the book and see what I can pull out of my memory. Every time you pull it out of your memory, you strengthen the connection and actually start learning it. And then you need to space it out correctly.

So you slowly forget the information and then you try to recall it again. And if you do that in the right interval, then it will slowly go into your long-term memory. So that is basically active recall and space repetition. Those two types, those are the official terms for that. And that makes it way more effective. And I slowly stumbled on that. And that definitely improved it. Now, when it comes to different languages, I think, and whether or not people should, you know, learn it when they're dyslexic.

I think, you know, if your child wants to, and that is something that they feel like that is something that, you know, brings them something or some joy, then, then I would let them, you know, it's definitely something that can be really challenging. I might, I would consider what language it is and what the, how irregular it is. So, some languages are terribly irregular and I wouldn't recommend any of those. So that is, for example, English, you know, spelling.

It is very irregular. So you have things like, beef, leaf and chief, right? So you have all those words and, you know, it's written all differently. You have the same sound, terribly confusing. You all need to learn that from memory. And, and for example, Italian that is written very much like you speak it. So that would be a good one. also the Norwegian languages are way better. And the languages that I know, they're all better than, than English.

Interestingly, now I actually prefer English, but only because technology is so much more developed in the English language. So I, we have, for example, Grammarly that really is a good grade eight and, now JetJTP that can also help you rewrite things. And, that is also, yeah, that is, that does definitely also, plays a big role and, makes things easier and that might not be available in, in different languages. So that's why it's, an element.

And this isn't something you talk too much to either, but I'm wondering what you think about the idea of learning a language just for speaking, you know, so you wouldn't necessarily choose it as your school subject then where you have to do all the written, you know, because something like English, often people are hearing in TV shows and all that. So perhaps they could pick it up sort of through immersion and thinking, but yeah.

I mean, I think that, you know, intrinsic motivation, like if your child has, say drive to do it, I think that's really big. And if that is present, then I would just say, go for it. And there's so many elements within, you know, I, for example, I had this, this teacher, this English tutor that was an Englishman. And we went over, the English literature and I actually really enjoyed it. And I've learned a lot from these sessions with him and it wasn't necessarily, the correct way to write, but it was things like Diggins and other literature that we read that I actually did find enjoying.

And, the meetings with him, I should definitely would not have liked to miss. Yeah. The motivation and the particular class or teacher. Yeah. And the student teacher relationship. Right. Very important. Yeah, that's true. It's interesting that you mentioned how English is so difficult. And, you know, for those of us in the U S, obviously English is for, for a lot of, a lot of people in the U S English, it's their first language.

And, do you think, and we know that, you know, we, we obviously know that dyslexia is about more than just, reading and spelling, right. But, but do you think that dyslexia gets, I guess maybe interferes more for people who are going to school in English than, than say in a more phonetic, than an easier language or a more phonetic language? yeah, I would say so. I mean, it's, it's, it's still going to be there, you know?

Like there's, there are effects on the working memory, kind of be the same. so that will, you know, affect multiple different areas, but at the same time, if you're able to sound out a word and then you know how to write it, that's incredibly helpful. and, for that reason, I think that there are certainly languages that are more suitable for dyslexics and where they would struggle less in certain areas, especially when it comes to, to writing and also reading.

Like if you know, if you can rely on the fact that if it's spelled this way, then it sounds this way, then that makes it a lot easier. And there's less confusion with when it comes to the, all the different syllables and letters, that are written. Yeah. I mean, of course it could affect identification and, and either way, right? Like I think sometimes, I mean, it was a longer time ago too, but my mom was someone who was dyslexic, even though she's never been identified.

Right. But we know, we know that's now, and she, was growing up in Finland where it is phonetic. And I always wondered, I mean, it was such a long time ago. It's hard to say how much was just the, there being less awareness and identification in general, but I always wondered a little if she made it like, you know, she was less identified almost because she could sort of just make it because it's so phonetic.

so who knows? I mean, it all of course plays into our journeys in all kinds of different ways, that aren't necessarily like where we can say it's for sure our pro or our con, but, it's interesting though. We don't often have the chance to talk about languages. So it's interesting to hear your perspective. Yeah. And, and it's also like, you know, it doesn't go away. So also when I'm, when I'm in, in a Hebrew class, I, I kind of feel like I have the same issues still in a way, like it's, it's very much something that you grow into and you don't really grow out of it.

and, and that, yeah, that, that is, is still there, but at the same time, the classes that I took here, for example, we're really focused on speaking and small classes. And that, that is also a big benefit. If you, if you have that element emphasized where you're, you know, where you're fine, where you feel like, okay, you're, you can do that. yeah, those things, those things certainly help. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so pivoting a little bit here.

So I just in general, cause you, you know, you do have this education degree and you do lecture about dyslexia. So I'd be curious to hear just from like a research perspective, is there any particular nugget of research, whether recent or not, that is sort of like a favorite that you like to share or something that surprised you or what, what do you, what nugget of research would you'd like to share with our audience?

So one that I find, yeah, really cool is, is it's on stigma and, how that works. And, basically it, it connects to the fear that people tend to have of their children being stigmatized when they're, when they're, yeah, giving them a diagnosis. A lot of, I still hear of parents that are saying like, okay, let's not because there will be stigma attached to it. And that will be bad for my child.

Right. So when the researchers did was they had, had three groups, one control group and one group of, poor readers without a diagnosis and one group with, poor readers and a dyslexia diagnosis. So one group that just struggled to read and one group with the label, and they did the measures on emotional wellbeing and anxiety levels. And what they found was that, regardless of the, of the label, the emotional wellbeing levels were lower and anxiety levels were lower in the dyslexic and, or readers without a label group.

So they were the same in that sense. And the result that they, took away from that is that it's not actually the label, but it is the experience of struggling academically that is causing the issues and self-esteem and negative emotions. So if you, if you, if you then take that into account, then what we really want to do is try to prevent excessive amounts of failure, just, you know, compounding. And I think when you diagnose, then at least there is an awareness that this child is different and that it needs to be treated differently.

and I think that is, that is really valuable to, let, you know, parents not make that mistake where they're thinking, okay, not diagnosing will make things better. That's really interesting actually, because I think, you know, we're familiar with some of the research on stereotype threat around identity. And I think we maybe assumed that, being identified as dyslexic, which functions similarly to stereotype threat. And it sounds like it does not. Was it?

Yeah. Yeah. Like, yeah, that, that, you know, you also have that, that research, of course. yeah. And, and there, yeah, it is maybe also something to where, you know, if you were to dive into that a little deeper, you will see more signs also of a different coin. I'm not saying that, let's say, you know, there isn't any of it, you know, any stereotype that has a negative effect. I wouldn't say that, but for example, there was another piece of research that I, took a look up or look at, and I was kind of hoping for a specific results because I thought, you know, that would be really cool if that would be that way.

I was assuming that if you won't tell like a teacher about the, the diagnosis, about the dyslexia, about the kids with dyslexia, then also the, the results when it comes to grading would be different. And, they did that research and that was actually not the case. So they were assuming that there would be a stereotype thing going on that would make it, yeah, would affect, the results, but it didn't in that case.

So, yeah. So I've been more on the side of like, okay, it seems like the effect or the fear that we're having doesn't seem to be too, substantiated. Yeah. I mean, it makes sense to me because there's already, like you said, the failure aspect so strong that there's already, in that sense, there's already a stereotype threat happening in that they're feeling like people are feeling like they aren't succeeding for whatever reason.

So, yeah. Yeah. And I mean, anecdotally, I mean, based on our daughter's experience and other people we've talked to, it's almost the opposite. It's almost, they've, they've experienced failure and then when they're identified, then it's like, oh, now I have an explanation for why I was failing before. And that actually bolsters their esteem, I guess. I mean, what, what happens there is this, that often the way you do attribute, so the way you explained, your dyslexia to yourself, you have like different options when it comes to that and one unhelpful way you can explain it to yourself is by, making it into something that is general.

So it's like me as a whole person is somehow wrong. And, and that is, and then the diagnosis comes and the diagnosis is very specific. So it tells you, okay, you have an issue in this area. So then these voices in your head that you, that telling you, you know, you're generally a failure or you're generally have a problem or, you know, you might think to yourself, well, I'm just not that intelligent.

Those are quieting down because it becomes something more specific. and I think that is, that is the effect. And, yeah, and people are like, you know, they're even so happy that they're have found this, like that they're, that they see or that they're even like, if they do it by themselves, let's say they, they self diagnose or they, they find screening tools and they see this as a solution. And they're like, oh my God, you know, this makes so much sense.

And then the fear kicks in of like, okay, if I now get an official diagnosis, then this, this piece that I have with this finding will probably suddenly be taken away from me. So that is also something that is, that is going on. Okay. Yeah. Well, you know, you have so much obviously to share here and you're sharing some of these specifics with us, but I'd be curious to hear with your coaching.

We started to hint this in the, at the end of the last episode, but I'd love to hear more about your coaching and consulting. Like, you know, I think you've talked to parents, but you know, are, what's the range of sort of services you offer and the people who you can author it to. So I mostly work with, dyslexic adults and I work mostly on mental health related issues. so that is the, the bulk of what I'm doing occasionally.

There are also parents, that I work with, but that is more the exception. Okay. And, yeah, I work on basically the thoughts, so cognitions, so how to deal with them, how to reframe thoughts effectively. And then, if you reframe them effectively, then they have an impact on the way we feel. So then we have the whole emotional side and, and then we have the behavioral, elements. So then you're going into behavioral experiments.

For example, one thing that is common, for example, is that, dyslexics aren't particularly open about their dyslexia. And what's happening in that occasion is that the, the dyslexic kind of proves to themselves that it is something shameful, that it is something that is not okay by actively hiding it. So that is really a, dynamic that can be, can cause a lot of negative emotions. And then when you set up a experiment, so you say, okay, what's, what do you think that will happen if you tell somebody, right?

So you ask that question, you spell it out and, then you say, okay, like how, how can we test that? and you, you basically set up a talk with a friend or with somebody that they, that they respect. And, at the beginning, you still also give like a rating. You say, okay, I believe that this assumption that it will be bad for me to tell somebody is, you know, let's say, you know, 80% accurate, right?

So that is then the, the, the beginning point of the behavioral experiment. And then you, I meet the next time and with these people and they find like, oh, well, they totally reacted differently than I thought. And there were a lot more positive about it. And they, you know, had suddenly an experiment or an experience that was totally different. And that then teaches them in a way that it is not something that is shameful or something that is, yeah, as, yeah, as negative as they believe it to be.

And when they see that other people actually are going, yeah, react to it in a more positive way than they thought, then they can also start to be more accepting towards themselves. So that is, you know, one process or one, one element. Yeah. You mentioned in the previous episode that you, that you're, I guess, influenced by, cognitive behavioral therapy, CBT approach. Yeah. Yeah. That's definitely part of it. Neurologistic. Yeah. Well, that's like recently I got more into, schema therapy.

So Jeffrey Young has written a book, or several books he developed it. And that has been a really, really eyeopening in a way that I didn't expect. So he basically goes from, he says, okay, we have these typical childhood experiences that can then lead to patterns that we tend to repeat in, adulthood. So, young called this, not Jeffrey Young, but, the, the young, that is, the psychologist, the other one, he, called it repetition compulsion or in German, it's so the compulsion to repeat past trauma in a sense.

And then the question becomes, okay, how are we creating a situation as dyslexic adults that for example, reintroduces failure, or if you just scrape by as a child, for example, you might have done that by, putting very strict and high standards on yourself, you know, and that creates a lot of pressure. And that might be the way how you survived, or how you got through school, but then as an adult, you still do that and it creates a lot of stress and you're close to burnout because this pattern keeps repeating itself and identifying these patterns can be helpful.

And then identifying how you, how you recreate them in your life now so that you know what to avoid. So that's, those are, elements and there also, you can look at behaviors that you're doing. You can look at rules of life that you set for yourself and core beliefs and, you know, start questioning them. Like, is this really the case? Am I assuming that this thought in my head is a fact or not?

You know, so those, those are all things that, that I work with, with, dyslexic adults. That's amazing. I mean, I can just hear how that's so transformational because it's, you know, both the mindset shift and seeing one's own thoughts and behaviors and the practical, right? Like with the behavioral testing and, which is how one has to take all those parts in to try to really shift something. That's such a pattern. So that's wonderful.

so hopefully, yeah, we'll, we'll definitely put all your information in the description box so people can, can find you and contact you. so let's talk about the YouTube channel a little more too. So you have this wonderfully successful YouTube channel, which, I think it was the last time I mentioned this. So I'll say it again, that it was very, very clear and informative. And so it's just very, very helpful. Each video is so well done.

I'm curious probably to hear just some feedback you've gotten about it and like how helpful that is to people because often there isn't a lot, I mean, there's still not that many resources I feel like for how prevalent, dyslexia is, feedback and then just sort of like also what you're hoping people take from that, from their, from their work there. I mean, yeah, a lot of time the feedback definitely makes me blij.

Oh my gosh, it's just like, you know, it's so positive and, and you, yeah, you're just, it's all, it's kind of fuzzy if you know what I mean. So it's like this community that is all they're sharing their experience. And, I just find it very, you know, wonderful to see, even though I'm frequently overwhelmed by the amount of comments that are coming in. so that is, that's still a thing. but it is, yeah, really, really lovely.

And, I'm trying to more and more, like I started out more general on dyslexia and I'm, I'm kind of shifting more to adults now and try to make that more of the, the focus. just because that was also one of the feedbacks. It's like, okay, we have things for children, but, what's with adults, you know, it's not, it's, it doesn't just go away. So you have a big population that is still, feeling the effects.

and, yeah, I had clients that came to me and I said, like, this is the first time that I actually talked to somebody about this, that I, you know, that I haven't really, you know, I just slipped through the cracks and that I still really struggle with this and just being there and like listening to that, it's, it can be already, a big, a big thing for a person to, open up about that.

Yeah. It's interesting. I mean, on our channel, which, yeah, we, we don't have as many, viewers as you do, but, we are aimed, you know, this content that we put out is aimed mostly at parents, but the comments we get are almost entirely from adults with dyslexia and often, often with kind of heartbreaking, anecdotes, like, oh, I, you know, I'm 55 and I struggled with this my whole life and I was, you know, always told I was stupid and I'm still struggling.

it's really, you know, hard to read some of, some of that actually. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it certainly is like, also like when I shared my story and then the feedback that I got from that, video and then the people, when it comes to those comments, I think those are one of my favorite comments are on that video, where they really share their own story as well. And, tell me what happened to them, you know, and then you're, and then you think like, okay, you know, this is what's happening to people.

And then, and then you, you compare that to the awareness, to the, to the attention that it's getting, it just doesn't match up whatsoever. so that's, yeah. Yeah. I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on that. I mean, I don't know if any of us know the answer to this, but any, I, any ideas as to why just, you know, dyslexia is so prevalent. Even sometimes the numbers go up to one in five and it's, I didn't, I just don't feel like I, besides the fact that sometimes even teachers and, you know, for identification, it can be slow.

I don't feel like it's around like, like some other things, maybe, you know, autism and, maybe an ADHD, I feel like are mentioned more just even within shows, TV shows, or like just around in media. I feel like it's less so. It's almost ignored by the media, except occasionally to make a joke out of it. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I, I fully agree that it is, it is kind of, even if you look at search, volume.

So if I compare search volume of, of ADHD and autism, to the search volume that we are having within the niche of dyslexia, it's just a lot lower. And, then there are a couple of, key terms where they, where more people are searching for, but aside from that, it's just not. it seems like people are just equating it with, yeah, some difficulties with reading and writing and that's about it. And, the experience that then follows, is often, yeah, not really seen or people aren't aware of it, I think.

And, that then leads to, to, you know, people not really taking it seriously the way they, they should, even, you know, people that, that come to me, they're like, you know, I kind of have this voice in my head is like, that's telling me, well, it's not really to be taken seriously. so, that is certainly a thing. hopefully that can start to shift somehow, you know, as more awareness just gets out in general, hopefully people will take it on to also have it come into stories more and into media more.

let's, let's shift as we sort of, we're getting sort of towards the end of our time with you here. I would love to hear just sort of your sort of top tips and advice and all that kind of thing, maybe to some different groups. So maybe starting with, kids, which could be to your younger self. That's often how we think of that as like, what's the advice we'd give our younger self.

And then that's advice that we would give to you today. What do you think, I mean, I'm sure there's so many things you could say, but what are some top things that occur to you? I think take more advantage of audio. I think that's a big one. I kind of refused to do that when I was a kid because I was fighting it. And in general, that's a, that's a tip. Okay.

You can, you know, if that is your way of like trying to overcompensate or like try to fight it and, then that is, that is okay, but don't rob yourself from the ability of taking in information because that lack of taking information in just compounds over the years. And, yeah, so that, that will be for my younger self, be a little more accepting towards it. And, it's okay if you, if you use accommodations and you're not cheating, if you take some more time, it's about the, the content.

And also I would say, don't take grades too seriously. Like they're often very subjective. the, that, that was one of the major things that really shocked me, when I got to, study education studies, that element of like how accurate they actually are. I did, some exams on that, on that specific topic and, you know, like just to knowledge that it's, that your grade is based on the comparison to, you know, the people in your class.

That's the, that's the frame of reference, the other kids in your class. Now, if they're really good, then you're going to look bad in comparison to them. If they're not good and are generally just struggling more than you will look better. So, so, so the, what is the ability of a grade to say something really, it really depends on your frame of references. And if you compare yourself to an entire nation, then you get a more accurate, picture, but that is, you know, that's not really, what we generally do.

Yeah. I mean, it's such an important thing, really, just an education overall, right? Like, what are we trying to focus on the grade or the learning, the learning and the outcome or what it is that we're trying to get to next in terms of the goals and be so hard though. So I think it's good. You can't say it enough. Yeah. I think that is also one, also more that I, something that I communicated to teachers.

So I had some, teacher training sessions with, with, students and teachers themselves and, that they really take these exams, not as like, okay, we're, we're now, finishing up the subject. So we have an exam now, like the purpose of the exam is to determine where the kid is at and then you can basically create the upcoming content based on the results of the exam. That's kind of what the purpose is, is to determine how you, what you teach and where the gaps are and what you need to fill in terms of your teaching.

but often it's, really just the end of a session and then it's never talked about again, which is really, really good point. Yeah. And well, what about, and, and your YouTube channel is of course full of videos about information about dyslexia for the general public, but, if you could pick kind of your top, top, you know, one or two things about dyslexia that you kind of wish that everybody understood.

One, and the top two that I wish everybody would understand. Well, you know, there's so many things that are really interesting to talk to, so it's, difficult to pick one. but I think, you know, in terms of in general knowledge, it's, it's something that affects more than just reading and writing. I think that is really important. I think the mental health side of things is really under, you know, not really seen.

It's not in the picture, but if you then look at like anxiety levels of children with dyslexia, it is just like they, they at least double in all kinds of things when all kinds of, anxiety levels. so I think that is really important that more people know, also if your child is dealing with school refusal, that that is something that's, that is going on. Like these emotions are very real and they're very reasonable.

so I think that is, that is something that I wish, people would know. yeah, I think that's, there's certainly more, but right now that's, that's what I got. Yeah. So, just to close out, we want to make sure people can know where to find you. We're going to put all this in the description box as well. So you can, of course, share any final thoughts as well, but, anything else you'd like people to know about contact you for the coaching.

I know you offer the first free session because you want to make sure it's a good fit. but yeah, where can people find you? So yeah, just go on my website. There is like a little calendar there that you can click on and, you can just pick a time and date that will fit for you. You will get a zoom link. I will get one. And then, then we could just talk.

I think that is the easiest way to do it. And, the least amount of friction can tell me you don't need to write a big thing. you know, just tell me, in the, yeah, in the session itself or, send me a WhatsApp voice message. Also something that would be a friendly for dyslexics and, something that people can do. Great. Wonderful. Well, I, I thank you for all the work you're doing in the world.

I mean, it's just so important, in so many ways, your YouTube channel and the coaching and, you know, all of it. and thank you for sharing it with our listeners as well. Yeah, you're welcome. I, yeah, I'm happy to do it. And it's, it's always fun to talk to people that, are also passionate about it and, are spreading the word, so to speak. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.

We'll see you next week.